Why+So+Eager+to+Deal+Out+Judgemeant?

Well, after reading "The Colonel" in class last week, our period H class had a pretty lengthy discussion about the definition of poetry. To my surprise, I found there were more people than I expected that were very eager to define poetry into a concrete label and exclude any writings that did not fit their restrictions. Basically, I am wondering why they were so eager to do this. We are all so young in terms of our poetry reading and analysing careers; how could you think you know poetry well enough to set its definition in stone? From what I can see, the definition of poetry needs to remain ambiguous and fluid to accomodate for the progress and inovation of the art. If you don't like some of these more contemporary poems, you don't have to read them. And they can't really destroy any of the great works of classic writers like Milton and Shakespeare, so where's the harm? Thoughts?1203903006

MKo, I think we were all taught a very strict definition of poetry all throughout school until now. You know, 'rhyming stanzas = poetry, paragraphs = prose, and sometimes if you are a very good and famous poet, you can get away with not rhyming'. We are stuck in our ways. It is difficult for us to see a poem written in paragraphs, like The Colonel is, because we have been taught that the way to recognize prose is by looking for paragraphs, and you recognize poetry by looking for stanzas. We think we know poetry, because we have been taught very strict boundaries for poetry. You are correct, there is no harm in experimenting with poetry, and it is in fact necessary to accomodate the changing world. However, the education system does not always teach us that things are ambiguous...they like to stick to the cold, hard facts (Hard Times ring a bell?). And therefore, I repeat: we are stuck in our ways. 1203980530

I agree with Mike--I was surprised by how eager everyone was to say, "Oh, I know what poetry is." Almost as soon as we started the discussion, the dictionary got pulled out to clarify. But, unsurprisingly, the dictionary definition was very vague and no one was quite satasfied.

I think it is important to recognize that poetry isn't built off of a definition. When someone decides to write a poem, they don't sit down and say, "Well, let me look up what a poem is before I begin." Of course not. A poet is an artist, and they are trying to find a new way to express themselves, to stretch their minds and think about something in a different way. I get so frustrated when people keep saying that something isn't a novel or isn't a poem because, oh my, it doesn't follow that rule! Poetry, to me, is all about thinking in a different way than usual, because a poet manipulates the words to create something that is unexpected and different from the norm. It encourages me to think along new lines. If poets always stuck to one formula, the ideas and thought processes would become stagnant and expected, and poetry would not be much of a creative art anymore.

Besides, I'm sure that everyone's favorite type of poetry was, at one time, new and radical, and some poeple dismissed it. I agree, we need to be more flexible to allow for creative growth. 1203982863

Not surprisingly, I was one of the people that Mikey mentioned as quick to judge poetry. I guess I'll throw my perspective in to show you what people like me think (if there is anyone out there who does think like me). I am a perfectionist and to some degree a positivist. Outside of theology, I do not like abstractions. I want to be able to look at something and say that it is one thing or another. I want absolute truth. That is why I have a strict definition of poetry; I want things to be exact.

Are there flaws with my outlook? Probably. But I do not like how the definition of poetry we came across was so vague. Such subjectivity in this context meant that anything could be a poem, even if not intended to be. I do not like that either. I think that poems should be written as poems, novels as novels, etc. If the categorization of literature was so subjective, there would be no categories. Everything would be seen as something different by everyone.1203989821

No need to let John sit on an island by himself. I have problems putting my mind around such a vague definition, as well. I don't necessarily disagree with it when I think about it, but I have a problem saying "anything it wants to be" when someone aks me what poetry is. Dear old Mr. Webster defines poetry as "metrical writing." This doesn't necessarily pin poetry down to one particular form or rhyme scheme. However, it implies that there definitely is SOME kind of form behind it. As much as I'd like to believe it's poetry, I still have problems believing some forms such as blank verse to be poetry because of their lack of form.1203997330

I will admit, I am not really a fan of poetry outside of Custard the Dragon or Shel Silverstein, but I do happen to agree with lsi. Different forms of poetry have their own forms, but poetry as a whole was not built off of a definition: it is creative. As generally a more logical person, the creativity is beyond my grasp, but I understand how poetry can be a vague, abstract art. I think it is difficult to find a way to lump all poetry into a pile and say, "These poems have all these things in common, so that's why they're poetry." Poetry is just one of those difficult concepts that you just have to accept, I guess, because there is no rational, concrete definition for it. 1204000666

MKo, I completely agree with you. I think trying to define poetry is kind of a ridiculous feat to take on. As mentioned in a previous forum, poetry is a form of art, and it is extremely difficult if not impossible to define any specific type of art other than general terms. Poetry is supposed to be written in any style the author so chooses, and therefore it can't be tied down in any particular way. 1204073661

It really is hard to define poetry, but like Nick said I think there is some element of form that is connected to every poem. They may look different, have different rhyme schemes, different stresses, etc, but they all are the same in that they differ from prose, at least that's how I look at it. I don't want to say that a poem needs a certain number of lines or beats or whatever, but it does need to express some sort of idea in a style other than plain speak. On a more obvious note, I also think that poems should be coherent or at least understandable. Not to say something like Br Tom's is incoherent because it can possibly be understood. So really those are my two requirements for a poem: style other than prose with a chance at understanding them. Other than that I think it's up in the air.

I mean I see what you're saying Mike that poetry is too diverse and versatile to put one imposing definition on it, but it needs to have some level of definition, otherwise what makes a poem different from the kitchen sink if the poem has no definition?1204082109

I cannot say that I can define poetry. I think that it is different for each person and how can one person deny another person of his opinion. This is why I think that it is so hard for a dictionary to define poetry: it is such a vague word that depending on who you talk to, the definition may be different. I think that poetry is an opportunity to escape from the stresses of life. Everyone needs a break from reality once in a while and everyone has a different life and reality and therefore a different way to escape from it. With this being said, how can we tell someone that his or her poetry, his or her escape from reality, being poet or reader, is wrong. How can we say that something is or is not poetry. We can all have our own definitions of poetry, but I do not think that we can create one definition and give examples of that definition. I like to keep poetry open ended because I feel that as soon as I am able to create a definite definition of poetry, I will find something that I think is a poem, but does not match my definition of what poetry is.1204147150

Why should anyone have to define poetry? I took a creative writing class once and my teacher yelled at us for using rhyme scemes--poetic life exists outside of same-sounding endlines. Leave the rhyming to Dr. Seuss; some messages need to be written without the fluff of a rhyme at the end of the line. As we've seen in The Making of a Poem, poetry can take many forms. And who's to say that they know what poetry is? It can be anything. Why do specific criteria need to be applied to all literature?? I think that writing poetry is largely a creative process; it's not something that people should be judging on whether or not it rhymes. And honestly, do any of us have enough experience with poetry to say that we know what it is? I certainly wouldn't say that I could rattle off a definition of poetry if asked right now. Poetry is art, and art shouldn't be given a specific format. 1204155500

I agree: why should we have to define poetry to certain standards, rules, etc.? Maybe we find that if we can specifically define it, we can somehow have a "better grip" on it. I find that today, readers try too hard to define something to a rigid definition and then work from there, rather than just being open minded about what something can mean and rolling with it. dru makes a good point when she says that "The Making of a Poem" has shown us that poems can take on a variety of different forms, not just a certain one. In terms of what poetry is, I find that it can be anything, too. Why, do you ask? Well, I remember an exercise from American Lit. sophomore year with none other than Brother Tom in which our class tried to define poetry; I remember Bro Tom pointing to the stapler (of all things!) and saying that that could be poetry, and so could a blank sheet of paper with a single word on it. For some reason, that lecture has stuck with me because it shows me the creative freedom poetry offers. We are not bound by a specific definition of poetry; part of the reason why I like poetry so much is because the possibilities are endless. 1204172550

Although I love room for interpretation, I also don't like the absence of a definition for poetry. Where do we draw the line? It seems to me this may be how blank verse origniated. Poetry can be so many different things, why can't it be prosaic? Hence, blank verse. I'm certainly not saying that blank verse is not poetry, but it seems like we just keep adding new categories and pretty soon, we will have distant cousins of the poem that are nothing like the original form(s). In an odd way, I think it reflects our changing society. We make so many different categories and amendments to accomodate to those who couldn't belong. We could look at affirmative action all the way through to our school systems and their random awards for students who didn't really achieve anything. This isn't supposed to sound mean or cynical or derrogatory in any way, but that's the correlation I made. Maybe it's way off, but it kind of seems like we just made a huge free-for-all category for those who couldn't handle the pressure of poetry pre-blank verse. Although I'm a fan of it when it is mastered, blank verse is still iffy for me and I like standards and guidelines that it lacks. user:kco-c

I associate poetry with music. And do we limit music to just one or two forms that everyone agrees upon as "good" and "acceptable"? Of course not! (the existence of polka music should give you the answer to that question) Rock and Roll was not always around. But now it is one of the most popular forms of music (if not THE most popular). And there were people who disagreed with it, and people who still do. But nonetheless, it is a form of music. Likewise, poetry doesn't need to be a couple of forms that people agree upon. Artists are creatures of expression. They creatively present their ideas. How can you limit creativity? Just because people don't necessarily agree with it doesn't make it any less a poem, if the author was intending it to be a poem. 1204179632

This class has really opened my mind and my own definition on poetry. I am often too quick to judge a new work that Brother Tom introduces to us, but am also more times than not swayed to believe something different than my own preconceptions after we have read and discussed that piece. What does this mean? Judge"meant". I think that it means that we, as a class and age group, especially myself, need to not be crtitical and work on not judging. It's in our human nature to have critical thoughts, whether positive or negative, and that's ok, but I'm talking about the negative ones, the ones that restrict me from truly being able to appreciate a piece of poetry from what it is or was meant to be because of my own hold on myself and my capabilities as a reader. I guess growing up when I thought of poetry I thought of Dr. Seuss. Now, I'm not sure what I think of. Well, I guess I can't lump it all together to easily, so my mind is scrambled to what poetry really truly contains. It's almost too much to swallow at times. There is old and traditional, there is new and fresh. There are opinionated essays, there are poems with many short lines. This class has challenged my brain to accept new notions about poetry and expand my definition of it. I'm sure many other poeple would agree. Although interpretations can be diffucult at times, I enjoy it. I've been introduced to many different styles than I was used to and gotten to learn new things to say the least. I guess in a way, my judgements have helped me to learn. We all learn from our mistakes, right? So far, it's been quite an adventure. 1204186737

I agree that way to many people seem to think that they can neatly define what a poem is, and sort poems into one category, and everything else into another. But I think if it were this simple then poetry wouldn't be what it is. If everyone who wrote music had to follow one of a dozen forms then I would have gotten tired of the entire art a long time ago. Poetry is always changing, and although some people decide that anything that is new is bad, we have to accept that it is going to morph into new and different things and that everything we know about it will change. Most people like to have that definate definition that they can use, and I think that is one of the reasons that poetry is never really exceedingly popular because it takes an open mind, that isn't afraid to go out of the box, and forget everything that is conventional. 1204261160

kco why do we need a definition at all? Yes, you are right. If we stop attempting to define poetry we will end up with many derivatives of the original form. Yeah, some of these will be odd, and some will just be incomprehensible. Yet, I want this to be the case. I happen to disagree with Pope; there is more than one pathway to truth. If that means that a poet must forgo the rhyme scheme and meter, than so be it. I want to be amazed. I want to experience the word play that the author had in mind. Who cares what anyone else had in mind when this particular poet started to write. I want to experience beauty. Let the poets write. We will all end up being the beneficiaries.1204538408

Reading over this topic, I realize that it parallels quite a bit with Pope's "Essay on Criticism." Who are we to judge whether or not "The Colonel" is a poem? As Pope says, we can only be qualified if we are established writers and more experienced than the poet, Carolyn Forche. I'm not so sure that I agree with Pope on this issue, because I think that judgment is natural. I'm sure that almost all of us judged this piece as a paragraph when we first saw it and even before we began to read it. Pope's problem with this (in how I see it) is when we voice our false judgments out loud. Anyways, back to "The Colonel." Is it a poem? I have to vote a resounding yes, because I have no logical reason as to why it shouldn't be. It's included in a poetry book. Forche obviously meant it to be a poem. If she wants it to be a poem, who I am to deny her that? The funny part about this poem is that in period F, we spent so much time arguing whether or not it was a poem that we completely missed what Forche was saying in it. At one point, Brother Tom stopped us and told us that maybe we should be asking ourselves a different question. Why the heck did the colonel have human ears?!?!? The style of the poem distracted us from its substance. 1204856473

I think that the concrete label we want to put on a definition of poetry comes from our grade school days. As far back as I can remember, I have read poetry that has mostly and ABAB or an ABCABC type of pattern. Of course I assumed that the key component of poetry is rhyming. That became etched in my brain somehow. So since then when I read poetry that doesn't have a rhyming scheme I have a real problem enjoying it and viewing it as poetry. Throughout my years in high school I realize that my views on poetry do not fit all of the poetry I have read over the last four years. However, I do believe that my ideas of rhyming poetry are almost necessary. It doesn't necessarily need to be rhyming, but it should have flow and a sort of rhythm in my opinion. Poetry contains some of the most musical sounding sentences and phrases in literature. I think that if a "poem" lacks this, it really shouldn't be considered a poem. Anything can be considered a piece of writing, but a poem has something melodic to its sound when it is read.1205380343

Mko, you bring up a good question, and undoubtedly I was one of the people in our class that immediately thought I knew what poetry was and tried out my definition. I said that poetry has either some type of rhyme or rhythm to it, making it different than prose. After much discussion I greatly narrowed my definition, but it is a good question to as why we want to have such a concrete meaning. For me personally, it comes from this idea of trying to find myself and find out what I believe in. Obviously, this relates to much more than the definition of poetry, but I feel like I am getting to the age when I have gone through so much awkward growing that I just want a definition. Again, this awkward growing relates to much more than growing in my reading of poetry, but does it hurt to have a solid, or concrete, definition of poetry? No. I feel like I can take on more poems too if i really understand what poetry. But this class has certaintly taught me that I cannot define poetry that easily...1205466530