Common+Themes

How often are the same themes used in ballads? It seemed to be that __The Making of a Poem__ book choose many poems with very common themes and stories. For example, "The Wife of Usher's Well” and "My Boy Willie” Are both about young men who die at sea. Overall death seemed to be present or mentioned in just about every ballad. Other that the two poems I mentioned above "The Cherry-tree Carol" mentions Christ's death and resurrection, "Sir Patrick Spens" speaks of the death of Sir Patrick, as well as many others hold death as an important theme in the poem. Do such large percentages of ballads actually have such common stories? Is our book sending us the wrong message? In the description of what a ballad is the book does mention that death is a very common theme for a ballad. Do these common themes define a ballad? Can a poem be considered a ballad if doesn't use one of the subject matter listed at the top of page 75? Can subject matter define whether or not a poem is a ballad? I think that this is important to consider especially with the ballad, which has few structural requirements compared to many other forms.1202187619

Something to keep in mind is that the ballad began as early at the sixteenth century. Death was something that was easily relateable and all around. No good medicine, plauges, getting sick when going off to sea, death was all around. Since the ballad tells a story it was easy (and popular) to talk about death. Personally, I had always thought love was a common theme for a ballad, maybe I've been tainted by popular music. If you were to take the music away from today's popular ballads would you look at the lyrics as ballads? Do they match up with the requirements of a ballad? Or has so much time passed that the classic ballad has evolved into something else? Should we rename this new interpretation or are today's popular ballads just that, a different interpretation?

I don't think the subject matter would define a ballad, but that is probably something up to interpretation. If I've learned anything from this book, it is that poetry is a lot of opinion. Some people feel certain things are poetry while others would disagree. Some think they are writing poetry while others think it's garbage. As you mentioned, the ballad has few stuctural rules, so much is left to interpretation. For me, the important thing about a ballad is that it tells a story, with some sort of rhyme scheme. It's combining a story with some sort of musical qualities. But that's just me, you probably have a different opinion!

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I think that love and death are definitely common themes in ballads and I think the reason is that most poets would not write a ballad if they did not have something memorable to talk about. Love and death are usually memorable events in human life: some even powerful enough to make ballads or songs out of. However, there are also ballads written about lifestyles such as "We real cool". There are exceptions to everything so although love and death are common themes in ballads, they are definitely not the only themes. The fact that the ballad can be written about almost any topic is another reason that I enjoy to read and listen to ballads whether they be from the 1800s or today.1202333276

I definitely noticed the common theme of death at sea as well. The first two ballads that we read aloud in class were very similar stories and the third differed only in the point of view. I would agree with Anusia's explanation that at the time period that ballads were popular, death at sea was something very real and something that many people could relate to. It just so happens that the death of one's love makes a good story, and thus, it is repeated often in the ballad. I think we also have to consider the editors of this book. Why did they choose these ballads that seem to represent only a small fraction of the possible subject material? Maybe it is because these ballads are from the earliest forms and are thus better examples of the ballad at its prime. 1202249979

I don't think that the ballad can be defined by its subject because after reading the ballad section of our poetry book, I noticed that the subjects ranged from comedy to death. However, I do agree that death is a prominent theme in these poems probably because like ADi said, death was very common in the sixteenth century. Also, I think that the ballad has the capability to illustrate the sadness of death more so than any other forms of poetry that I have encountered. It's structure and narrative form makes it easier to express one's sadness in words. By telling a story, the poet is able to evoke human emotion. Interesting observation KHo, I think that the editors of the book probably wanted to show us the more famous ballads many of which were about death. However, some of them were happy like the ballad about a dragon. 1202250281

I also don't think that subject matter has anything to do with the qualifications for a ballad. If it were, than that would be severely limiting. If all ballads had to be about young men going off to die at sea, nobody would write ballads anymore because it would have all been written about before. What is great about each poetic form is that it allows for flexibility. Each poet can bend the form to create something different. This varying interpretation leaves room for creativity. The fact that a few of the ballads had the same theme suggests only that death is a common theme, then and now. At any given time on the radio, 99% of the songs will be about love. This is not because all songs have to be about love, but just that it is an important part of our lives, and that is what we write about. 1202260509

Of course it doesn't have to use a common theme. Look at Custard the Dragon: no guys going off to sea or dying in it! Wait....there's the pirate... and he dies...oh God, there IS a connection!

Any rate, I don't think it necessarily has to fit under the common theme. In my topic about the Johnny Cash song "A Boy Named Sue" being a ballad, which is clearly different from many of the poems we read out of the book, the vote has been overwhelmingly in favor of calling it a ballad. One thing we have to keep in mind is that the authors of our poetry book strive to put in the poems that best portray the form and its uses. This means that they aren't necessarily looking for subject matter when they select the poems. We just have to take this into context when we listen to narrative poems to decide whether or not it's a ballad. 1202263335

I had noticed the patteren of death/seas as well in regards to many of the poems in the beginning of the section on ballads. I agree with many of the others that this does not necessarily mean that this is the common theme. In class we talked about how ballads were an early form of communication and relaying of news. Somet of the most important news would be about who had recently died and how. I suppose boats were a main part of life back then - it was the main way to travel long distances and of course there was quite a bit a fighting among the countries. But as the chapter continued on, there were different kinds of ballads, such as those with religious and humourous context. 1202266141

To agree with the above posters, I state that a ballad does not have to have death in it to be a ballad. Ballads, in essence, are poetic stories that utilize a great economy of words to tell an elaborate or intricate story. Death comes up frequently in the ballads in the book, //The Making of a Poem//, simply because, death is a common ending to an elaborate story, especially an epic story, which many ballads portray. But it is a logic error to note that because death is a repeated theme in ballads in the book, //The Making of a Poem//, that death is almost a requirement for a ballad. That is a hasty generalization, a stereotype of poetry, one that Br. Tom clearly put to rest in class with songs, such as //BlackJack Davey,// by Bob Dylan. This is a ballad, thus a story that utilizes a great economy of words to tell an intricate story, but this ballad does not contain death; rather, from what we can infer, it does contain adultery. At a surface level the adultery comment that I just made is beside the point, but through pondering, I realized that virtually every ballad does end or infer a final significant act, be it death, adultery, or even following a big fool into the mud. Perhaps this final action, this climax of a story, is the common theme of ballads.1202268756

Death was a really common factor in the ballads and I think adi really said everything there is to say about why they wrote about death. I think another factor as to why death appears so often is because two huge elements of ballads are both pathos and plot. One of the requirements of a ballad is the story or narrative that is told within and throughout the progression of the song. If you think about common themes of ballads, as well as songs, they are about morals and concepts we learn through stories and experiences like love, death, and heartbreak. This form of poetry relies heavily on evoking emotion through those plots and so it makes sense that these would be less humorous and light hearted and more contemplative and less superficial. This is another reason why they pair so well with music, because the tone then can convey support that emotion and can add conviction to the plot and pathos. user:kco-c

In all honesty, I do not think subject matter comes into play at all when it comes to the ballad because as we've seen, the ballad can tell a comical story such as that of Custard the Dragon or a sad story about "Sir Patrick Spens" who dies at sea. I think the whole point of the ballad is this idea of telling a story, but not doing it in prose form; it is the idea of taking a story and making it so that it can have a tune or a rhythm put to it so that it is in a sense musical. Therefore, like music it can span everything from triumph to heartbreak and all the nitty gritty in between that. As TMc posted earlier, it's a huge mistake in logic to say that death is an essential theme of the ballad as the book seems to imply. The ballad can be about death, but it can also be about life and the silly little things that happen in it. I mean, you have "Blackjack Davey" by Bob Dylan which was all about a woman leaving her man for wild Blackjack Davey, and you have that other ballad we read by Woody Guthrie that glorified and beautified bandits and outlaws.

What I'm getting at is that the ballad is basically a broad form of poetry that can be used to describe every element of the human experience. While it is often associated with death and danger, the ballad can still reflect joy and even peace. Look at the "Death in Leamington" which is yes a poem about death, but it is actually about that somewhat peaceful, odd time between when someone dies and those close to the person realize what has happened. While this is about death, it is not the stereotypical story of someone going out and getting murdered, but rather about someone drifting off and fading away with no one to see them; to me it's peaceful in an odd way. Still, you can then go straight into reading "We Real Cool" and see how that poem just drips with corny teenage attitude, which while I laugh at it, I know I'm guilty of it and we all probably are sometimes. What I'm trying to say is that just looking at these two poems, we can see that the ballad stretches across all things and if there's one common theme among all ballads, it's this continuous thread of examining the human experience.1202275876

While I agree that saying all ballads have to with some singular plot element is a stretch, there are certainly some unifying themes. Death can't really be denied. I can't think of a single poem that was not concerned with death, be it obvious as in "My Boy Willie" and "Sir Patrick Spens," or subtle as in "The Cherry-tree Carol," "Custard the Dragon" (the pyrate did get swallowed), or "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy." Even "Blackjack Davey" was the death of a marriage.

But another theme I would consider as unifying in most ballads is that of humor. All most every poem had at least some humor. It came in many different forms, but it was usually there. "Custard the Dragon" illustrated whimsical, fun humor; the irony of "The Cherry-tree Carol" is a form of humor (God shows up Joseph); tragic humor pervades "My Boy Willie" (she just accepts that he is dead?); cynical humor in the maid's indifference to her mistress's demise in "Death in Leamington"; "Bagpipe Music" has a dark humor in its own way ("John MacDonald found a corpse, put in under the sofa, Waited till it came to life and hit it with a poker). This "humor" is not necessarily funny, but it makes light of serious situations, which is humor. Why it seems to be there, I can't tell, but it is there. 1202282746

At first glance, I would say that death and mourning is a common theme that unites all ballads but then we stumbled upon those exceptions. Not only Custard the Dragon, but also the songs that we listened to in class. Those ballads included themes of runaway love, Southern living, and so forth. I do not want to insult the organizers of our poetry book in any way, but I would have to say that I think that their collection of ballads is what caused me and other students to find a common theme of death. They have their reasons for choosing the ballads that they chose, but most of them were centered around death. Therefore, I am glad that we had the chance to listen to the other ballads that were songs to see how there really is no common theme in ballads, or common theme in poetry at all for that matter. 1202304455

Nah, I think the book just picked some prime examples of the ballad, and due to the location of the ballad's popularity in time and place, we got a sampling of a lot of sailor and death-related ballads. Also, having performed Sir Patrick Spens, I can tell you it just doesn't deal with death, it deals with death at sea too, so you can add that to your list. It's just coincidence based off location... mostly. The British Isles were always fond of the sea and wrote stories of those who went out. Also, the ballad's structure doesn't require it, but works pretty well with telling stories, and the stories told might often be of those whom one remembered or ones of heroism or reminiscing. For the Brits, the most likely places to find one of these would probably have been in battle or at sea, etc. And the ballad seems to have an almost more personal structure, and works well with telling the progressing story of a group or an individual, whereas other poetry forms with more hard repetition of lines might work better for overall impressions of events, rather than developing stories. 1202313500

I think that a Ballad could be about anything, look at Custard the dragon. I'm sure that certain themes work better with the way that the Ballad is structured, and because of that there are probably themes that are used more often than others. But I'm sure you could write a ballad about posting for English class, and it would probably still be a ballad. It would not be so limiting as to say that there are only certain subjects that can be covered by a ballad. I think that ballads are very open to a wide variety of topics, and that the possibilities of writing one are almost limitless. 1202314750

The Ballad style of poetry can be made to accomodate nearly any subject; however, its feel and rhythm make it more sutiable for subjects of mourning like lost love or death. As was evident in class, joyful melodies and lyrics can be used in the ballad, but the majority of the melodies that fit the ballads WELL were slower, darker, and generally more sad. The tunes that were more uplifting--Christmas Carols, "Barbie Girl"--didn't fit the lyrics as well as some of the more traditional and meloncholly tunes. The ballad is just a slower style of poetry: it is not meant to be read quickly, but rather with relish and feeling, and slow melodies are just generally sad, so the lyrics were made to fit the music. There is a reason that musical ballads in today's terms are usually sad, slow, dramatic pieces: they draw from the poetic ballads of yesteryear. 1202331674

dsU states that ballads are better slower, but doesn't that depend on the ballad at hand. Certainly, many of the ballads from our book focused on tragedy or mourning and called rightly for a slower, more melancholy tune. This doesn't necessarily fit for all ballads, even necessarily for all older ballads. I'm sure some of Child's ballads were more boisterous in nature and were performed at an up tempo beat. It could just be the particular selection of ballads that the compilers of this book chose. In any case, The Tale of Custard the Dragon, for example, can clearly be put to an up tempo beat and performed, as was done in my class. This same instance of the compiler's choice applies to the theme of the ballads. The theme is completely variable and up to the poet, our compilers just tended to focus on similar themes. I will make the concession, however, that the majority of the older ballads probably deal with the sea, because that was an everyday occurrence for the people of the British Isles (where Child got this sources from). They may not all necessarily deal with loss or the paranormal as our book tends to. 1202343169